I confess I had high hopes for the 'pro-faith atheist' Alastair Campbell, whose (whisper it) personal kindness and, yes, decency seem to point, as with one or two other firm non-believers I know, towards a natural alignment with Christianity.
Indeed, when I interviewed him for Christian Today in the immediate aftermath of the Brexit referendum last year, we in the office decided, thanks to some of his surprising answers, to give the piece the rather mischievous headline, 'Alastair Campbell: I may do God'.
'There's a part of me that would love to have [faith],' he said. 'Something's holding me back.'
The former head of communications to Tony Blair, who famously said to an American interviewer 'We don't do God,' added: 'I do find myself now as I get older having these sort of moments when I really feel quite deeply spiritual.'
And he described being in Scotland, preparing to give the eulogy at the funeral of his old friend Philip Gould in 2011: 'And it was like – it was just so strange – I saw these birds, and it was – ah – it was a really deep spiritual moment...I just don't know. My sister [Liz, 57] is convinced I'll get God. Tony is convinced I'll get God...something's holding me back.'
Fast forward to now, and Campbell has sat down for a fascinating, 40 minute interview for GQ with the Archbishop of Canterbury, no less (in which sister Liz features a fair bit).
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Yet there is something about Campbell in the encounter — is it the fixed look on his face? Is it that he questions whether you need to believe 'the story' of Jesus including the Virgin Birth — that makes me feel that he has decided, for now, not to believe.
Nonetheless, Campbell has by all accounts been reflecting hard on his encounter with the Archbishop, which actually took place some weeks ago but is only released now because of a backlog of Campbell's GQ encounters. He has said that this was one of his 'favourite' interviews, and told friends that he 'liked' Welby.
There are some gripping exchanges.
Campbell: 'Will you go to Heaven?'
Welby: 'Yes.'
Campbell: 'Will I go to Heaven?'
Welby: 'That's up to you.'
Welby, whose background is from the evangelical Holy Trinity Brompton — Campbell cleverly asks him if he still attends — says 'I don't do tribes' at one point. But there is something extraordinarily self-assured in both parts of that answer.
Certainly, some would take issue with it. You can't help wondering whether Welby's predecessor Rowan Williams — in another perceptive question, Campbell asks whether it annoys Welby that he is called 'Welby' in headlines while Rowan is (more affectionately?) called 'Rowan' — would have come up with a more, well, inclusive answer.
And last month, the conservative Christian journalist Peter Hitchens told me, referring to whether 'Heaven's gates are open wide': 'I think it is presumptuous of us to imagine that we know to whom they are open and to whom they are closed. I don't think that the badge of professed belief is the decisive thing....It is very dangerous when – I always wince when people say such and such a person will go to heaven, has gone to heaven, is going to hell, which people say in casual conversation and I think, how can you know? It's not for us to know.'
Yet perhaps there is something comforting about the clarity of Welby's answers, and I suspect Campbell found this.
Asked why he should come to faith, Welby tells Campbell that while there about 'a million reasons' the key is looking at the person of Jesus Christ. And again and again, Welby points to Jesus, and as he puts it at one point, 'the evidence for the Resurrection...what He said...the impact of what He did'.
Yes, Rowan would have done it differently. Asked a similar question some years ago, he said: '[The] Christian faith is essentially about a path to human maturity. It's a faith that allows you to express both your freedom and your dependence, until there's a balance...What I most want to say to the world at large is: "Look at Christianity carefully and what you see is this balance, between dependence on the God who created you and that sense that grace and gift are utterly fundamental, and you rely on that. And, coming out of that, a certain authority in your own life, living to live your own life, and shape creatively your own life and the life of those around you." I think it's basic in the Bible. It's basic in Christian tradition. And it's where the Gospel most, if you like, hits the deep human needs.'
But, though Welby found the encounter difficult — 'Is this going to get any easier?' he asks at one point — he does a good job of having an impact and, yes, evangelising to the hardened former spin doctor.
Welby puts it to Campbell: 'When your kids come and want to talk to you, you don't say, "Well, have you been good enough today?" do you?'
Campbell, most unusually, replies almost like a child himself: 'No.'
Then the Archbishop goes on to make the comparison between God the Father and a parent, and Campbell listens. Indeed, Campbell goes on to question whether he has done his own children a disservice by bringing them up with his partner Fiona in an 'atheistic' home.
Elswhere, Welby has to answer questions from Campbell about whether the Manchester bombing victims are going to Heaven even if they had not yet surrendered to Jesus; he shows impressive biblical knowledge; he talks about his own regrets as a parent and, as has been widely publicised already, talks about his own – thankfully relatively mild – battles with the 'black dog' of depression.
For anyone who has a spare 40 minutes, I thoroughly recommend this gem of an interview.
